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Season Six: Holly Staker (An Interview with the creator of Someone Wicked This Way Comes)
257 Plays1 month ago
In today’s episode, we are talking with the creator of Someone Wicked This Way Comes about the murder of Holly Staker. The interview stands alone for our feed but it gives a great amount of insight into the deep, deep rabbit hole of the twists and turns of the Holly Staker murder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_conviction_of_Juan_Rivera
You can listen to Someone Wicked This Way Comes at:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7mBJbfrMAIfD7CM1myMBTg
https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/a831e512-88f1-48eb-85e8-949c4d1ad47f/someone-wicked-this-way-comes
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-someone-wicked-this-way-co-206873132/
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Music in this episode was licensed for True Crime XS. Our theme song is No Scars from slip.fm
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Various News Sources Mentioned by Name
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:00:57
Speaker
In today's episode, we decided to bring on a guest who has done one of the deepest dives I've seen into a cold case. The deep dive is into the August 1992 murder of an 11-year-old girl named Holly Staker.
00:01:15
Speaker
She runs the podcast Someone Wicked This Way Comes. It's a podcast about the Holly Staker case and about all of the twists and turns that you might just get a little hint of in the media or the media is not telling you about at all.
Angie's Connection to Holly Staker Case
00:01:30
Speaker
There's also an element of this case that is completely disregarded. And that element is that this case is unsolved, even though it's been adjudicated, which is sort of the opposite of what we usually talk about.
00:01:42
Speaker
um There are several major twists in the case that very few people have been talking about. And it got on my radar and I realized that this case has all the likelihood of breaking as any other cold case, if not more.
00:01:57
Speaker
One of the other pieces I want to talk to this creator about is like how much true crime content sort of comes along and is done by people who are really good at creating content, but really not great at knowing a case or doing the research related to ah a case.
00:02:17
Speaker
For the purpose of today's episode, we're going to call her Angie. Angie is the host of Someone Wicked This Way Comes. Thanks for joining us, Angie. Hi, thanks, John. Thanks, Mike, for having me.
00:02:28
Speaker
The simplest way to start this, because you're you're like us, you kind of keep low-key in terms of like your biography and like your personal details. How would you like people to know that you came ah like became involved in researching this case?
00:02:47
Speaker
ah Do you want them to know like you lived close to there? like Yeah, I'm happy to share that So I'm originally from Waukegan, Illinois, and the murder we're talking about and that I've done a deep dive in is that of Holly Staker.
00:03:01
Speaker
And Holly was a little bit younger than me, but I knew about her case because it was like local news, but it also was very local to me because it was in the neighborhood I grew up in She went to my grade school and she and literally lived blocks from where I grew up.
00:03:23
Speaker
And so it because she had been murdered when she was babysitting, that really stuck with me because I babysat a lot.
00:03:34
Speaker
That was something that I did to make like my money because my parents were old school. And if I wanted to have a season pass to great America, which at the time was $50, which was like a million dollars, right. To a kid.
00:03:48
Speaker
that I had to go out and make my own money to get that you know season pass. So I babysat. And I even babysat for kids on Hickory steep Street. So when this happened, you know it was that you know horrible, horrific movie where you know someone's in the basement and you know they're calling you on the internal phone and you're the babysitter who's home alone.
00:04:14
Speaker
So it has always stuck with me. And that's why I have always wanted to know more myself personally.
Media Attention and Wrongful Convictions
00:04:23
Speaker
and then i realized that people in my neighborhood, people who had, you know, been raised around there were also still traumatized by this and had carried like this with them. They had always wondered like what exactly happened.
00:04:41
Speaker
And I thought, why not share, my knowledge and the fact that I had access to information and I could look it up and kind of understand it maybe more than the average person so that I could help them also while I was helping myself possibly understand what happened to Holly Staker.
00:05:02
Speaker
Would you say that this was the standout case for that area in your life? I mean, I think for me, definitely, and for girls my age, definitely, because it got a lot of media attention.
00:05:20
Speaker
and now, years later, in understanding more wrongful convictions out of Waukegan, I realized there were other murders that were happening around that time that I really had i have no memory of.
00:05:33
Speaker
But Holly's case stood out to me. So I think probably because of age, my age, and, you know, being close to her age and doing something that, and you know, is a rite of passage to young girls babysitting.
00:05:46
Speaker
So I think, yes, it has stayed with a lot of us and of this age, of you know, around the same age. I was a little older than her, but Meg, I think you're her age, right? I am.
00:05:59
Speaker
And when I came back around to this case, last year, year before, I had always been under the impression it was solved. But I think the thing that like grabbed the hold of me about the case is the fact that Holly was a twin.
00:06:14
Speaker
um I'm married to a twin. We have a lot of twins in our life. But it turns out it's not solved. And that's sort of where you pick up in all of this. but was Was the exoneration, did that factor into you proceeding with the podcast? Were you under the impression that it was solved?
00:06:35
Speaker
So I knew that Juan had been exonerated. And I can't tell you how i knew that, but I knew that. but Like before he had been officially exonerated? No, after he had been officially exonerated. Okay, okay. I knew he was exonerated. You know why? Because Juan has used the money he got in his wrongful conviction settlement.
00:06:57
Speaker
He got $20 million, dollars I believe. Obviously, he didn't get all of that because, you know, there's attorney's fees and stuff. But he has used that money to do things like open... He opened a skate, skating park skateboarding, skateboarding in Waukegan.
00:07:12
Speaker
And then he opened a barbershop on the north side of Chicago, which is specifically geared to young men who have come out of prison that are hoping to have a career to go and do something.
00:07:25
Speaker
ah So i knew about him because of the things he was doing in the community. And I knew he had been exonerated, but I wasn't certain if they had, in fact, found Holly's killer.
00:07:38
Speaker
And the reason i truthfully, the reason I started doing this deep dive is because one day my husband and I were talking about childhood bullies.
00:07:49
Speaker
And I mentioned my childhood bully. And I thought, huh, I wonder where he is now. And I looked them up on the internet. And when I looked up Dionne Markadonis, all this information about Holly's case came up.
00:08:05
Speaker
And I was like, he was a suspect in Holly Staker's murder. So my childhood bully was legitimate suspect in Holly Staker's murder.
Interrogation Flaws and True Crime Media
00:08:19
Speaker
And that was truly what got my attention because I thought, oh my God, like whoever has that much of a connection, right? To murder that stood out in their head.
00:08:31
Speaker
So that's why- That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really when I was like, okay, what's currently going on? Like who, like, and ah that is when I went down the rabbit hole. And I have stayed down that rabbit hole ever since.
00:08:45
Speaker
This is a little detail. I believe that one is factually, actually innocent. Not just, you know, he wasn't, um his conviction wasn't overturned on like a technicality or anything like that. He's actually factually innocent. Correct.
00:09:02
Speaker
his His DNA has not matched a single thing that was associated with Holly's murder. So that fact alone, even though he had a third trial because of the DNA not matching and he was found guilty again, because sadly of his coerced confession.
00:09:23
Speaker
And juries really have a hard time believing that someone's going to confess to something if they did not do it, especially if it's something that is so brutal, right? How could you ever say that you were involved in this? And, you know, there's tons of evidence that, you know, like, ah I think I mentioned on the podcast about the shoes that supposedly one owned and there was blood on it.
00:09:49
Speaker
They got it from a fellow prisoner who turned it over to the police. The police tested it with her DNA. Well, the defense team was able to prove those shoes didn't weren't even sold in the United States when, you know,
00:10:02
Speaker
when Holly's case, when Holly was killed, that they were sold after Juan was in prison. Well, how did the DNA get on those shoes? How did Holly's DNA get on those shoes? How did Juan's?
00:10:14
Speaker
So there were a number of things that were very suspicious. The court's confession was thrown out by the court, and the court was extremely critical about how that confession came about.
00:10:25
Speaker
And then again, the court you know also talked about the DNA, how it didn't match because the crime scene was rich in DNA and there was no DNA to match once.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, that speaks volumes. and Particularly for those of you who haven't caught up on the Holly Saker case, I encourage you to listen to someone wicked this way comes and then come listen to what we're talking about here.
00:10:53
Speaker
Google it, dive into it. There's lots of court documents here. um I think you did a great job pulling from those, but also pulling. i always end up sitting in court and thinking, what am I missing? Like, what is this like left out of this? And you found a lot of those elements.
00:11:11
Speaker
I did. I worked hard. Yes, you've worked really hard on this. it's um It's an amazing amount of research. In fact, most people that come on here, I ask them, like, do you have a case that's really close to your heart that you're going to be working on next with whatever they're doing with a book or a podcast?
00:11:26
Speaker
And I have to tell you, I feel like you have the one out the gate that was probably... Like, it's one of the most interesting cases I've ever read up on, but I feel like I can hear in your voice, see in the research how closely you ended up feeling to this particular victim.
00:11:46
Speaker
But I do want to veer away from it for a second and ask, like, how did the research make you feel about confessions and polygraphs? Oh, I don't trust him at all.
00:11:57
Speaker
i it's It's not just Juan's case. You know, there are currently six wrongful convictions associated with murders out Waukegan that anyone who listens to someone wicked this way comes will recognize. And that is Lou Testament. He's a former officer of Waukegan and of the Lake County we Major Crime Task Force.
00:12:19
Speaker
And he He believes in the Reed Technate, which is a form of interrogation that you know, was John Reed came up with it. He developed it. um and Tessman has used it extensively. But Juan's case, he was interrogated over three or four days.
00:12:44
Speaker
And they would wake him up. they would you know start to interrogate him again. So if he was sleep deprived. He had a psychotic break during the interrogation, at which time, i can't remember if Tessman and his ah fellow officer wrote the alleged confession or typed it up.
00:13:06
Speaker
And then while Juan was essentially, you know, ah in a fetal position, rocking back and forth, having ripped out portions of his hair that had the scalp attached to it, they handed him the piece of paper and told him to sign it.
00:13:26
Speaker
And then they took that piece of paper to Mike Waller, who was the state's attorney at the time, and Waller said, there's not enough information, you need to go back and get more. So there was a second alleged confession.
00:13:39
Speaker
And what's interesting is the jail nurse said, was the one who came forward to say like, hey, this guy was having a psychotic break. Like, you know, there's there's clearly a problem with that.
00:13:53
Speaker
And it was completely disregarded. So i how the state's attorney was able to get, you know, that event from the jury's ears, because I think that's vitally important. You need to let the jury know that, yes, okay, there's this piece of paper this guy signed, but guess what was going on during that time?
00:14:15
Speaker
And not only that, Juan had what was considered a low IQ, so lower than the average person, and he had a history of like depression and some mental issues.
00:14:27
Speaker
So he was ripe for coercing. I mean, he he was like the perfect victim.
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah, he was. And um I don't know if you caught this like while you were reading through things, but if you read the 2011 appellate summary, which is ah it's a pretty massive document, um there's a total of nine police officers coming in and having contact with Juan in these four days.
00:14:54
Speaker
so Yeah,
Interrogation Techniques and Wrongful Convictions
00:14:56
Speaker
that's a lot. that all Yeah, it is a lot. Nine people coming at you? Right, right. like that' That feels a little bit like you know a football game where you like you're the only guy on the other team. Yes.
00:15:11
Speaker
um What's interesting about the read technique, so I'm trained in the read technique. um It is definitely something that you can... use in a number of ways. What's interesting about it is I, so I, I work as an investigator for defense attorneys. So I'm on the other side of it all. And i I sort of use it to my advantage at times to get information, but like you can't get, in my opinion, you can't get confessions with the read technique in a way that you can trust them unless you have like, it's, it's interesting. It was designed to be used with,
00:15:46
Speaker
like evidence. So the idea originally was a good one. Unfortunately, even the person who developed it ended up abusing it along the way. um but the idea was to weed out people.
00:15:59
Speaker
It's why we have hold back evidence. Like it it was to weed out people who weren't like really involved, but it ended up sort of being, i don't want to say hypnotic and make it sound magical, but it's almost like you're making a friend and the friend is like wanting to please you. And it's particularly true.
00:16:16
Speaker
with people whose IQs are a little lower or whose like social IQs are a little lower. um What's interesting about Reed is he was, he was a Chicago police officer. Like, and so Illinois, for some reason is still very, very high on John Reed, even though he developed this in the fifties and the sixties, he's from, you know, Chicago.
00:16:38
Speaker
Well, he has the Reed, their main office is here in Chicago, and that's where these individuals have been taken, at one included, whenever they do the polygraphs.
00:16:50
Speaker
Right. Yeah, so the technique was actually developed for like a good reason, and the good reason was because it had been identified by the Wickersham Commission. i don't know if you're familiar with all of this, Maddie or Angie, but i'll I'll keep it simple.
00:17:06
Speaker
That the The people in the United States federal courts had begun to recognize that maybe the most smart people in the country weren't police officers.
00:17:18
Speaker
And sometimes being a little less smart meant that like you didn't necessarily feel like you had to follow the rules. So every time there was like a a drastic decline in unsolved crime statistics, they started to look at it and go, well, why is that happening? And what they found out was rather than like actual crimes being solved, there was the development of what it would be known to like in, in today it's sort of a joke, uh, the third degree.
00:17:51
Speaker
So, ah the third degree was the third stage of an investigation. So the first stage of an investigation is the investigation and the gathering of the facts and evidence of identifying suspects.
00:18:04
Speaker
The second stage is the interviews where you try and make, people fit into places and times based on facts and evidence. The third degree is when you can't get them to do that. You can't make the puzzle where you basically take out a hammer and you start hammering the pieces in place. Or if you have a suspect in front of you, you pull out a phone book.
00:18:28
Speaker
So the re-technique was developed to stop violent interrogations. Okay. Well, it makes sense that that came out of Chicago, right? We have John Burge.
00:18:39
Speaker
so they were trying to find out some find some other way other than, you know, brutally attacking alleged suspects. Right. And the other thing that you do, I think you cover it in two episodes, but you kind of cover it a little bit in some of the other episodes, is you talk about the resources that were put into the investigation into Holly's murder.
00:19:00
Speaker
And you specifically talk about how many people they polygraphed. Mm-hmm. yeah it You talk about 10 of them in detail. Could you tell me a little bit about that without spoiling the episodes, of course, like what did you think overall after you saw sort of the outlay of resources? i was surprised that Waukegan polygraphed that many people.
00:19:22
Speaker
And I don't know why I was surprised by that, but I was taken aback by the number of people they polygraphed. But for example, you know, I mentioned Dion Markadonis, who was considered, you know, suspect high on the list.
00:19:36
Speaker
He wasn't part of that polygraph. Now, there may have been later polygraph that I just never got my hands on, and maybe he was. Maybe there was ah you know there were more people who were polygraphed.
00:19:48
Speaker
That said, don't put a lot of you know trust in polygraph exams. And I'll tell you why. i you know i do work in the legal industry, not in criminal law.
00:20:01
Speaker
I work in civil law. And I worked with a young lady, an attorney, And while she was going to law school, there was a test that they wanted to do. her professor said, I am going to pick one person out of this class and I'm going to have them steal something from another student.
00:20:24
Speaker
And then we are going to polygraph everyone. I'm not going to tell you when it is, when it's going happen, but you know you'll know when we start polygraphing people. And we're going to see... If the person who stole, if their polygraph comes back as, you know, indicating deception or, you know, if other people who had nothing to do with it, like how it goes, come back. And what was interesting was this young lady said she passed the polygraph.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yet there were other students in the class who didn't. who, it you know, showed deception. So years ago, because of her story, i was like, yeah, you know, I could see that.
00:21:06
Speaker
So I just, and then after, you know, reading these polygraphs and, you know, saying like, oh, deception was indicated, you know, there was something else indicated.
00:21:17
Speaker
i thought, you know, again, we kind of go to how people come across, like, If they're able to keep themselves calm, if they're, you know, sociopathic, are they able to lie with a straight face and really believe they're alive so nothing, you know, comes up on the polygraph to indicate they were being deceptive?
00:21:37
Speaker
I do think those people exist. And then I think there are other people who are just nervous wrecks and they're, you know, may come across as being deceptive when in fact... no, no deception whatsoever. They're completely, you know, truthful and honest.
Wrongful Convictions in Illinois and Legal Critique
00:21:49
Speaker
So I don't put a lot of stock. And I think that's why the courts don't put a lot of stock in it. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:55
Speaker
yeah I agree. A hundred percent. i I feel like there's so many variables involved. And if, if they, if a law enforcement agency feels like, you know, they've got a a viable tool because they've had success with it.
00:22:10
Speaker
ah That would be like maybe part of either ruling somebody out or not, but I wouldn't rely on it more than that. Like, I feel like the, it has a lot to do with the administrator of the test.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yes. ah um How they look um at, you know, the test as it's happening and how they ask questions. I mean, I feel like there's just so many variables there. that even if there was like a straight up way to perceive deception, i still feel like it, it just, there's too many things that vary from ah polygraph.
00:22:51
Speaker
what What are they called? Polygraph administrator, I guess. Polygraphers. Polygraphers. Really? Yeah. um There's, there's so much that can vary from polygrapher to polygrapher.
00:23:03
Speaker
that it's it's really just, i it's a subjective situation, i think. Good job in using those two in tandem there, because that's a bit of a tongue twister. with linkfer So John, I wanted to actually say, so you were talking about the Reed technique. Well, what do you think about the fact that John Reed, who developed this, the first person he got a confession on on leader it was considered a false confession.
00:23:36
Speaker
i So ah coming back to John Reed, he's also a polygrapher. Just throwing that out there. um He was, so he was doing some interesting stuff that I don't think the Reed technique in the initial form ever worked the way John Reed thought it would. I think that,
00:23:58
Speaker
all of those, um like, I think you're referencing Daryl Parker when you say that. um yeah So i'm referencing the the case is a 1955 case and I think it's Nebraska maybe. yeah yeah um So this, the, this was how he like sort of put boots on the ground.
00:24:18
Speaker
He had been working against a guy named Leonard Keeler, who had set up in Chicago and was also training police officers and prosecutors. They both had sort of competing ah polygraph training clinics in Chicago, which came out of this And I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was, I know it was called the Scientific Prime Detection labor Laboratory or SCDL.
00:24:42
Speaker
um I think it had been set up like during the depression and they were really just trying to combat disease. Thiefs and the mob they were specifically set up after the st. Valentine's Day massacre so Reed had this like pressure on him that probably was akin to like the pressure of the late 60s in the space race like I have to do this thing now or I'm gonna like Like I'm gonna kind of fade into obscurity which for all intents and purposes. He probably should have
00:25:14
Speaker
he gets Daryl Parker to confess within 24 hours, Daryl Parker recants this confession, but it becomes evidence at the trial. He's convicted by a jury, sentenced to life in prison, but another man confesses later. And not only does he confess, but his confession is accurate to the facts of the matter.
00:25:35
Speaker
Meaning he knew things that Reed had screwed up that like jury had sort of been encouraged to overlook. And, it's It's one of the early wrongful convictions. I think it's the first wrongful conviction based on false confession slash bad polygraph work, bad read technique interview work.
00:25:56
Speaker
And he ends up getting like half a million dollars. yeah um But that didn't stop John Reed. Don't you worry. He like went on to to turn his experience into a book that he later would. And I'm not kidding when I say it's a book. It like reads like fiction.
00:26:11
Speaker
It's called Reed's Manual. Yeah. And I think it's got a longer title now, like criminal interrogation and confessions. But the U.S. s Supreme Court, like pimp slapped it to the point that, like they said, ah it's it's so bad that we are going to rule in Miranda versus Arizona for Miranda, which created the modern day Miranda warnings because of John Reed's book.
00:26:35
Speaker
he His business and how he did it, he found the right state to continue to do work in. Because Illinois is ranked number one in wrongful convictions in the entire United States.
00:26:50
Speaker
Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. The Project Innocence ranked them, and Illinois is number one. So at one point, Lake County was number one in the counties in Illinois in wrongful convictions, and but recently Chicago took you know, the number one ranking again.
00:27:12
Speaker
So Lake County and Chicago constantly go back and forth in, you know, rankings of wrongful convictions. And the thing is, Chicago, you would automatically expect, right? where It's a larger city.
00:27:26
Speaker
But Waukegan, you, like you sit there and you think, how is it possible that Waukegan, that, you know, the population ranges between like 15,000 and 65,000 versus millions Chicago, right?
00:27:39
Speaker
How is it possible that Waukegan can take the number one spot from Chicago? i mean, that alone should boggle people's minds. I agree, it it Angie. That is baffling. honest and ah But I was just going to say, i feel like one of the... i am not trained in the read technique, and um I would be probably considered a critic of it.
00:28:08
Speaker
And... and i've I always felt like it took too much interpretation and evaluation ah that the officer or the, I guess, the investigator doing the interview,
00:28:26
Speaker
like They have to be able to interpret things that I feel like most ah law enforcement investigators or a lot of law enforcement investigators would have a skewed view.
00:28:42
Speaker
And I think that that is why... ah The read method is responsible for a lot of false confessions because they are not truly evaluating it. They're evaluating it according to what they think.
00:28:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's a flawed criteria. Right, how they're responding and they're like, they already have it in their mind. But I've always seen it. And it's funny that I'm saying this a second time because you mentioned your bully earlier, but essentially, you know, a bully can get anyone to do anything in, you know, and that's pretty much what I have always seen the read technique as being. It's just as a step-by-step process on how to bully somebody into telling you what you want them to
00:29:36
Speaker
Well, I think it's interesting what, John, you said, that you feel that it it's a good tool to a certain degree, but that there are other things that also need to be in play if you're going to use the REE technique.
00:29:52
Speaker
And I think that's probably true with a lot of things, like at face value. Like, this is why you, you know, you have these additional resources or tools that you would use to rely solely on the read technique or even to rely on a confession, i think is problematic for the U.S., not just Illinois, not just Lake County, but the U.S., because I know there are other countries that don't go with confessions. There has to be something in addition to a confession that proves the person, in fact, did the crime because
00:30:30
Speaker
the statistics on false confessions are pretty high. And you you kind of, I get that because you think about it. If you have been taught to believe that the police are in a position of authority and you have to listen to them and you have to believe them, you're now sleep deprived, you're not in your own environment, you are scared, your stress is, you know, through the roof,
00:30:56
Speaker
And you have people who are in a position of authority who understand these certain techniques to then get into your personal space and say to you, you did this. You know, i think about Jerry Hobbs.
00:31:08
Speaker
He was also a person, you know, false confession. He confessed to killing his daughter and her best friend. Like, And people just kept saying no one would ever confess to killing their daughter unless they really did it.
00:31:20
Speaker
Well, we know for a fact he didn't do it. George Torres, or Cruz, I think I'm getting the guy's last name wrong, but he he had killed other people the DNA matched. So they knew it wasn't him. Jerry Hobbs, thankfully, was never found guilty because he was still awaiting trial at the time, but he supposedly falsely confessed because it was a coarse confession.
00:31:41
Speaker
And that's what worries me about confessions is that I just think there has to be a lot more to it than just, hey, and in Juan's case, once the DNA came back as not his, the only thing they had was the false confession.
00:31:57
Speaker
Well, so it's interesting that Juan comes up in the middle of all of what's going on with Holly Staker. Yeah. Because I distinctly remember reading the court documents, and I don't know if they're still out there because of the settlements, but it's been at least 10 years. It might be 12 years ago.
00:32:14
Speaker
Juan, you were talking about the settlement that that Juan has. His settlement was with eight organizations, the total like the total amount that he got came from, and and I say that because it's relevant to what we're talking about, ah it came from eight organizations. And one of those organizations was John Reed and Associates. Yes, exactly.
00:32:35
Speaker
John Reed had been dead for years, but like it was still being run. And i remember reading the court documents from that, knowing very little about Holly's case at that moment, but looking at it from the perspective of If they would have investigated at the time, the degree of the other suspects, the way that Juan Rivera had to be investigated in order to prove his innocence, because they had the DNA from like the same kit. I don't know what they're called in Illinois. They have a different word. um
00:33:10
Speaker
But that's the physical evidence that's recovered from the crime and specifically from the body. ah Here we have... we We have a sexual assault kit here. They call it a sane kit. But I know Chicago has a like a different term for it. It's like a park kit or something like that. um But the they also looked at his ah the ankle monitor, which yeah like was it was monitoring him because he had been involved in a burglary.
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, he was stealing car radios. That's how old his case is. Yeah. Yeah. feel Like people actually had car late radios that like you took the whole thing out rather than now they're like, you'd have to take the whole dashboard. um But, but that was like, I think that was a moment for me. Like I knew false confessions happened, but I think seeing it laid out particularly, this sounds terrible, but the the ankle monitor, like, like knowing the DNA didn't match. You're like, okay, well maybe he was a lookout or with another person, but the ankle monitor showed he couldn't have done it.
00:34:12
Speaker
So you have these false compassions, you have these ah essentially read technique interrogations, and then you have these polygraph examinations that are laid on this poor kid. I mean, like i mean i know he's not a kid by this point, but... like You look at that and all I can think is, well, why didn't they do that?
00:34:35
Speaker
Trying to solve Holly's murder. Like what had to be done by like essentially the defense team. I know they're, I know they become the plaintiff when it's like a, like a that type of lawsuit, but like they're essentially like for the defense, like that would have like solved so many issues related to Holly's case, but you know, in the nineties and they're clearly using information that was available in 1992, 93 and 94, even if they're doing it in 2014, 2015 to prove that one could not have had anything to do with Holly's murder.
00:35:09
Speaker
And the other thing i i want to say is There wasn't much time between Holly's murder and ju and then Juan coming on the radar.
00:35:21
Speaker
It happened very quickly. Now, in the podcast, I said 10 months, but I've been corrected. i have someone who actually is fact-checking me now. And I'll bring this up. I'll clarify myself in another episode.
00:35:36
Speaker
But they pointed out that Juan actually was arrested and indicted three months after Holly's murder, three months, mind you.
00:35:48
Speaker
And i knew all of this was right before the November election. So the reelection of Mike Waller at that time.
00:35:58
Speaker
And there have been some to suggest that that's why, you know, there was such a quick rush to judgment, but I just know in these other wrongful convictions that have come out of Waukegan, you know, they have not been around.
00:36:10
Speaker
election time. So I can't really say that that impact was the case. It probably, you know, contributed to it, but three months. So to your point, John, like why wasn't all this time and effort that was put into, you know, going after Juan, not put into other truly viable suspects, because there are a lot of suspects and they were on the radar of the Waukegan police at that time.
00:36:39
Speaker
but those suspects were dropped once they had Juan in their sights and then indicted. So that it was such a missed opportunity because here we are back to where we started.
00:36:53
Speaker
Holly Staker's murder has gone unsolved. This is an unsolved crime.
Investigation Mismanagement and Accountability
00:36:59
Speaker
And that means that the false sense of security and safety that people of Waukeven had thinking that Holly's murder had been caught is not true. And, you know, girls, including me, like, it's terrifying now to think that, you know, okay, you think, oh, the police have done their job and the bad guy is now away and now I'm safe and I'm okay and I don't have to be so worried. I mean, you're still vigilant, but that it was a false sense of security.
00:37:32
Speaker
And there's, to me as a woman, and Meg, I don't know which you feel the same way, but i I want to really believe that the bad guy has gone away so that I can maybe feel a little more safe in my community.
00:37:46
Speaker
i agree 100%. And of course, now i I feel like I've learned a lot, obviously, from um all the investigative ah research that we've done over the years. And I realized that, you know,
00:38:02
Speaker
I'm not waiting on anybody to come save me in the event that you something's going on um But it would be um a ah disappointment. Do you have any inclination?
00:38:15
Speaker
Do you feel like the investigators believed in what they were doing? Or do you, like, John and I talk about it a lot. And when we get, we've talked about a lot of cases where um the investigation's not up to par.
00:38:29
Speaker
And, you know, it's either... ah it's either being under um its ignorance or its malfeasance, right?
00:38:41
Speaker
ah Either they don't know any better or they do know better and they're deliberately um derailing an investigation. in this particular case with Juan, once the investigators were doubling down after he was exonerated...
00:39:03
Speaker
it made me think that perhaps ah it was more of malfeasance to begin with, but I have no idea really. So I think it's a combination of both. I do believe that Tessman, and I've said this in the podcast, his nickname is Lying Lou, that officers knew this about him.
00:39:25
Speaker
I believe he knew what he was doing was coercive he created this, you know, alleged confession. but do I think other officers knew that maybe some who were close to Tessman knew that, but I do think probably other officers did believe that, you know, the evidence was there and it you know, pointed to Juan and they, they got their bad guy.
00:39:49
Speaker
mine My bigger question, though, is about the state's attorney's office. Now, the police, yes, I hold them to the same standard. But being in the legal industry, granted, not criminal law, but being in the legal industry, like I understand trials. I was a trial specialist for a while. So I was the person, you know, who who made sure the evidence was there. And if we projected something back in the old days, you know, you had the um boards that you had to put up, right?
00:40:19
Speaker
And then later I used, you know, electronics and, you know, the the media and all this. So I understand evidence. I understand motions in limine, motions to bar and all of that.
00:40:32
Speaker
I know it's different in criminal, but I get the general concept. My thing is, i just know in civil cases, when we have evidence and we look at it and it is suspect, you It's our job then to really look into that to see is this legitimate, ah you know challenge it however we challenge it, do de depositions, do all the things we need to do to make sure that that evidence is accurate, especially if we're presenting it to the court.
00:41:04
Speaker
I have a hard time with the state's attorney's office. for the second trial saying they were going to submit those shoes. And we're going back to the shoes again to show that Juan was connected to Holly's murder.
00:41:20
Speaker
And then when the defense came in and said we can prove these shoes were not even sold in the United States until Juan was actually in prison. So there's no way that it could be connected to Juan Rivera.
00:41:36
Speaker
How did Holly's blood get on there? How did Juan's DNA get on there. and Somebody put it on there, right? Well, that's the only conclusion. Now, why wasn't, I don't know for a fact if that was fully investigated by, let's say the Illinois State's Attorney's Office to find out, was this planted evidence?
00:41:58
Speaker
We need a higher, you know, power to look into this. All the state's attorneys did was say to the court, we're withdrawing that evidence. Right. Oh, yeah, exactly. and So they didn't use it in court. So they can say, well, we didn't use it in court. So you can't claim that we had false evidence, right? We didn't use it in court.
00:42:18
Speaker
no No, no, no, no, no. That's not how that works. Just because you've pulled it and you're not using it now, something went horribly wrong here. and so I'm much more critical of the state's attorney's office and the fact that I do believe that someone in the state's attorney's office early on likely had serious questions about the evidence, about Juan's wrongful or about Juan's confession, whether he was really the guy or not, and still just plowed ahead with it.
00:42:54
Speaker
I've had so many issues with the state's attorneys up there. In fact, I've had issues with Lake County, ah but but more so with Cook County on other cases that we've covered. Jake Hill?
00:43:05
Speaker
Yep. Jake Hull Hill is one of those cases where there was sort of a backroom deal made between two different states' attorneys that I had yet to get to the bottom of. But I want to make this clear for the audience in case they're not following what we're saying and they haven't yet listened to your full podcast i just want to point out a couple things because i have some questions for you and they relate back to this so what what we're talking about here is a pair of shoes that could not possibly have been on juan rivera's feet the night that holly staker was killed having holly's dna on them that's like a very deliberate act so the the police and the state's attorneys looked into other things related to juan's story
00:43:49
Speaker
Like there's this one thread that you mentioned, but like I read a long time ago and I always wondered about because it's contradictory, but it's like understandable how we get there. This is like the state's attorney and the police doing a good job.
00:44:04
Speaker
One of the stories was that the way they get one is like they get a tip from another inmate and he identifies this guy, Robert Hurley. as coming to a party, being sweaty and out of breath and having a scratch or a series of scratches on him.
00:44:23
Speaker
But according to investigation that's directed by the state's attorney through the police, there's no party that night. Like they have a name, they have a house, they have all these things. They like determine that like, that's not possible. So one, I've always wondered what happened to Robert Hurley.
00:44:41
Speaker
Two, I've wondered, like did that come out of like a misremembering of dates? Yeah. um and And three, how is it that they do good work and find that out, but then we've got these shoes with DNA on them that really the only way the DNA gets on them is if it's planted there, which up until a couple years ago...
00:45:05
Speaker
I have now been disabused of this, but ah up until a couple of years ago, I thought cops would never do that. And I've, particularly detectives who have been doing this a long time. And I've, ah I've, I've always thought that district attorneys and state's attorneys, which are sort of interchangeable terms in different jurisdictions would never do that. Now I know that's not the case anymore. And sometimes it's done to cut corners.
00:45:26
Speaker
Sometimes they really, really have a feeling that the guy did it. but they don't have the evidence. Yeah. but I don't think that there's like, I think that there's probably one person that did this. I don't think it's all of them.
00:45:42
Speaker
agree. mag I don't think it's some huge conspiracy, but I, I do think that that one person, and I think I'm thinking it's more than one person. I think that like Lou Testament is the main person.
00:45:58
Speaker
But I don't think that the state's attorney's office had a job in planting evidence. evidence But the state's attorney's office does have a responsibility to look at that evidence with a critical eye and say, is this something that we can, you know, in our role as an officer of the law and the oaths that we take, that we can say,
00:46:27
Speaker
yes, this should be presented to the jury and to the judge because this is true evidence. This is real evidence. And how would the police, you know, know that Tessman or, and and I don't even know that it was Tessman who put the blood on there, but we'll say some other officer who put the blood on the shoe.
00:46:47
Speaker
No, but there were other things to me that were red flags that it appears that the state's attorneys constantly turned a blind eye to and that is extremely problematic do you think it could have been handled behind the scenes what do you mean like while we didn't hear about it you know that the attorney went back and said you know look i just presented shoes that couldn't have possibly existed there's something going on here
00:47:21
Speaker
And some sort of something happening behind the scenes as far as, you know, I feel like it would have come out if that was the case. Like, you know, we found the person who did this.
00:47:34
Speaker
Oh, who planted it Yeah. I've never gotten a straight answer on that one. can't even imagine not being addressed.
00:47:47
Speaker
I agree with you. But why don't we know more? Like, why are you keeping it a secret? Again, this goes to the whole kind of, is it the code of silence? I don't like the code of silence because what you did does have an impact.
00:48:01
Speaker
on the public at large. And if we talk about public safety and we talk about transparency and we talk about accountability, right? Now in 92, were they having those discussions? No, but I do know in 90, in 2008, we were having those discussions and that's when Juan's third trial happened.
00:48:22
Speaker
Why, why doesn't the Waukegan public
DNA Evidence and Potential Leads
00:48:24
Speaker
know more? And if there was an investigation into who planted those shoes And it was likely someone who was you know highly involved in the Holly Staker murder investigation.
00:48:38
Speaker
Why were some of those highly involved people never let go? Most of those investigators, those police officers went on to have, I'm putting it in air quotes, stellar careers with the Waukegan Police Department and the Major Valley County Major Crimes Task Force. yeah Well, right, seeking justice as opposed to furthering your career. but i feel like in this particular case, um especially, you know, to have to say we were wrong, it doesn't really coincide with their prerogative, i don't think.
00:49:18
Speaker
No, I agree with you. But do you think, and actually, John, you may know better, but could that, and I don't know exactly how, like what happened, except that they presented the shoes and then they said, hey, these couldn't have existed.
00:49:34
Speaker
But couldn't that have been grounds for a mistrial? it was the timing of when it was done, I think, right? I'll let i'll let you take this one, Angie. Okay. No, because the thing is they hadn't presented it. So prior to the criminal trial, prior to even civil trials, you have to say what evidence you're going to use, right? And so you present that to the court.
00:49:58
Speaker
And then the other side gets the opportunity to, you know, contest it in some fashion. And so that, that was the stages was that that the stage um, the state's attorney had said, we're going to present this.
00:50:10
Speaker
And then Juan's defense team was like, Hey, Hey, Hey, like, no, he didn't have those shoes at that time. And that's where the debate came in. And the state's attorneys was like, yes, we know, like he traded these shoes, blah, blah, blah. There's Holly's DNA was, and,
00:50:27
Speaker
Like, thankfully, and I think this was just a fluke. I don't know. Maybe Juan's mom is one of those people that keeps every receipt for everything she buys. But she had the receipt. She bought the shoes at Walmart.
00:50:38
Speaker
She knew she bought them while Juan was in prison and gave them to Juan while he was in prison. So then the investigator was also able to track down the manufacturer of the shoe to say, yeah, we manufactured those shoes at this time and we only sold them in the U.S. at this time.
00:50:58
Speaker
So they were able to prove not just by the receipt, but also by the manufacturer of the shoe when, in fact, they were being sold in the U.S. So when they went back to the court, when there was an additional hearing about, you know, the evidence,
00:51:11
Speaker
then that's whenever the state's attorney's office is like, okay, we're not going to use this evidence then in trial. So they never, yeah. So the jury never heard about it or saw it.
00:51:24
Speaker
So once they rule all that out, and this happens much, much later, Meg, it shows up in the appellate documents. There's a federal judge during one of the habeas corpus hearings. He's like, you guys need to take a look at those shoes.
00:51:35
Speaker
So, The shoes are examined. They discover that the blood does belong to Holly Staker, which was alleged before it was withdrawn back in the 90s. But they also discovered had a second profile on it, which would have been the semen sample taken from the crime scene.
00:51:51
Speaker
So somebody just pulled the evidence out and wiped it on there. That's kind of what it feels like. Which isnt is disturbing. Like who's taking a semen sample and pouring it on shoes? And why are you destroying evidence? like Like the semen, but we know ah at this point in 2025, I believe all the usable DNA from Holly Staker's murder has been used up.
00:52:16
Speaker
yeah But there's a profile though. There is a profile. It's unfortunately not a full DNA profile. But I had always hoped that if there was still usable you know evidence that they would be able to pull it, test it, and maybe get a full profile. But at this point, I have been told there's no use there's they've just used it all up.
00:52:37
Speaker
There's nothing left. so So it's unlikely they'll be able to do genetic genealogy then. All they can do is eliminate or include um a a particular person in a comparison.
00:52:52
Speaker
Correct. And that's why Delwyn's case is so important and intertwined. Because right there is a connection. They do have DNA that they are constantly testing.
00:53:05
Speaker
So we are more likely to find the perpetrator of Holly's murder because of the crime scene evidence of Delwyn Foxworth's murder.
00:53:18
Speaker
And it showed, and so it, that was connected on CODIS, right? Or was it the state ah comparison? So I, and this is one of the areas that I am still unclear about.
00:53:34
Speaker
i know 2014, the Chicago Tribune came out and said, there is a DNA link. I've never found out How the trip found out about that and exactly when the Waukegan Police Department knew about it.
00:53:54
Speaker
Because Delwyn was attacked in 2000. He died in 2002 due to his injuries. And then they pursued Marvin Williford. I think Marvin Williford, and my timing might be slightly off with Marvin.
00:54:07
Speaker
I believe he was found guilty in like 2004. So when was DNA link so when what's the dna link made now Juan had to sue the FBI for the FBI to do a DNA search in their CODIS database.
00:54:25
Speaker
Right. And the FBI said fine, we'll do a keyboard search because Judge Pallmeyer, the federal judge, was like, just do a keyboard search, guys. Like, come on so they did.
00:54:37
Speaker
and But the FBI came also came back and said, you know, our policy is not to store this because the lab who did this is not FBI certified. So we're not going to store the DNA in CODIS.
00:54:49
Speaker
So it can't be searched against. Yes. So I know Illinois was searching and I know Illinois requested that Wisconsin search their databases. So those were routinely searched, but the FBI's CODIS database. Now that said, Delwyn's, the DNA from Delwyn's murder I do believe, and I've not gotten a thousand percent confirmation, but pretty much 70 percent confirmation that the ah DNA from Delwyn's case is stored in CODIS.
00:55:25
Speaker
So that probably means that then that DNA that's linked right between Delwyn and Holly's murder is in CODIS and it's being searched. But I've never been able to truly confirm that.
00:55:39
Speaker
And hopefully there's a notation that it's linked. Yes, I hope so. But you know what, at this this place has just been so insane. I don't know.
00:55:52
Speaker
i mean I mean, I completely understand that. And my thought is, you know, as time passes, you know, you know that it there was some sort of match.
00:56:04
Speaker
And now you did have somebody tell you perhaps not to to concentrate so much. Yeah, don't put too much stock in that. And ill I'll be honest, the person who mentioned that, i so I don't, you know, I haven't interacted with them enough to say that I, you know, put a lot of stock into what they say. So I still do think there's a link.
00:56:29
Speaker
I think that link exists because, you know, Waukegan, the state's attorney, has been routinely testing that evidence. And it's under seal.
00:56:40
Speaker
And I, you know, at this point, I just think, why would you be so secretive and have it under seal? But for the fact that there's more to this than just, hey, this is, you know, I, we can prove, um or actually in this case, they Marvin's DNA is not connected to Delwyn's murder scene at all.
00:57:00
Speaker
But the DNA, you know, There's something there that the police don't want us to know about. And it's not just the maybe possibly two other people or three people who are involved in Delwyn's murder.
00:57:15
Speaker
I honestly believe it's because of Holly's murder, which is far more high stakes for Waukegan than Delwyn's murder out of
Genetic Genealogy and Justice Pursuit
00:57:26
Speaker
North Chicago. Almost no one knows about Delwyn's murder. When I went to Waukegan and put flyers around the neighborhood to say, hey, Holly's murder is going unsolved for 32 years here.
00:57:39
Speaker
If you have information, please share it with me. And, you know, people, when I was talking to them going around to like Crips, I went into Crips because it still exists. That's where Holly went to get the pizza and the juice, right?
00:57:52
Speaker
And the person I was talking to was like, oh, yes, I know exactly. Oh, it it was so terrifying. And I said, well, you know, the guy who was originally arrested serving time was exonerated. And she said, yeah, I heard that.
00:58:05
Speaker
And I said, they've never found the killer. And there is a second murder that's linked through DNA. She did not know that. I would say 70, 80% of the people I talked to in Waukegan did not know about the North Chicago murder where there is DNA linked to Holly's murder.
00:58:25
Speaker
Yeah, i definite i if not a higher percentage of people that would know about her case and not the other one, because you're right. there's you know there's and And it's not uncommon for children's cases to be you know ah ah big deal as far as remembering them. Well, that was one of the ways that we sort of get involved here is you had shared some of the documents with us in a way that we were hoping we could use what was available of the DNA, but like what they're letting out is more sort of the binary part of it.
00:59:01
Speaker
um and it's do they Do they have DNA? So do you have any idea if there were three profiles generated from that crime scene? So in Holly's crime scene, there actually were two unknown male suspect DNAs that were pulled.
00:59:21
Speaker
okay But that doesn't necessarily mean, some people think maybe there were two, but the vast majority of people think there was one person who was well involved in Holly's murder and that that that one of those profiles, so I think they called it a secondary, um was just you know DNA from people who had lived in that apartment or had come and gone from that apartment and not necessarily the killer.
00:59:46
Speaker
Now from Delwyn's murder scene, They do have three profiles of unknown male suspects that were pulled from the two by four that was used to beat him and the gas can that was left behind and the gas can that was used to douse him with gasoline and set him on fire.
01:00:08
Speaker
Well, I think that um there's profiles and and one matched profile. From Holly's case, right? yeah And so I think, I know that ah the criteria, I believe the criteria that um it has to meet to go into CODIS, I do think it can be used for genetic genealogy.
01:00:26
Speaker
So, I mean, that's... You the other, you mean the one from Delwenseen? it Yeah, because it's in CODIS. Gotcha. And so i I believe, if I recall correctly, i think it's something like 18, there has to be, and they change it, so I'm not sure, but like 18 marker matches. Mm-hmm.
01:00:47
Speaker
that's enough to start a genetic gene, a genetic genealogical search ah for DNA, trying to identify someone like I, I call it kind of, you know, reverse searching because you've got the profile and you're going backwards.
01:01:04
Speaker
But ah if I recall correctly, that would mean even though it's a partial profile, ah For Holly's case, of course, I wonder how they matched it, though.
01:01:18
Speaker
That's interesting. I do think that it might be enough. I'm not sure. I'd have to look at it. um I'd have to look at the characteristics of it more carefully. But, you know, in theory...
01:01:32
Speaker
If anybody could get, if any of those three profiles got a match, you'd be one step closer to solving it because you could, you know, ask them, especially if it helped them, you know, in the situation as far as, to me, it'd be sort of worth it ah to solve both of those. Mm-hmm.
01:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think if they got someone, right, and they were truly connected them. They could just say, hey, you know, we're willing to give you, you know, a slightly better than, you know, sentence. I mean, they still need to be punished for it. But I feel like whoever they identify could absolutely, if it's not the person that matches in Holly's case, they could give up their accomplice for, you know, a little bit of a break. Yeah.
01:02:28
Speaker
and Go ahead. I'm sorry. What's the chuckle for? her i Just the way that she phrased that, like, ah yeah, I mean, ah they should they should definitely give up the accomplice. They should.
01:02:42
Speaker
I mean, honestly, at this point, it's so old. So think about it this way. If they're 20 or just say 20 years old, because that's a nice even number, then they're now, what, 53? Mm-hmm. But that would have been at holly seat when Holly died, right?
01:02:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah obviously Well, yeah, you're right. It's eight years younger in terms of Delwyn's case because it's in 2000 instead of 92. But I was just saying, whoever it is, like, give up someone in this mix. Or eventually somebody from that 2000 case is going to get found, like those other profiles.
01:03:17
Speaker
i I believe that. I really do. And I feel like, you know, with a little – I don't know how much –
01:03:27
Speaker
So I feel like in Holly's case, they're not going to pursue that ah because there's so much sort of, you know, it's, it's been adjudicated, overturned and closed, or, i mean, I know they say it's a cold case, but, you know, I don't, I don't feel like the work is being done possibly.
01:03:48
Speaker
And so that would, you know, you've got to put effort into the whole gene genetic genealogy thing. And it costs money. Right. when I talked to an officer and I don't recall his name now, and he just kept saying, like, this is an open and ongoing investigation.
01:04:06
Speaker
But and I asked, well, does Waukegan have a cold case unit or, you know, officers dedicated to cold case, cold cases? And he said, no. And I said, OK, so, you know, Holly's case is open and ongoing. How often, you know, are officers working on it?
01:04:23
Speaker
And he was like, well, you know, when they get time. Well, I'm from Waukegan. You know, i like that's my hometown. And of course, I love it and has a special place in my heart.
Impact of Wrongful Convictions on Trust
01:04:33
Speaker
But I also acknowledge it the challenges that town faces.
01:04:37
Speaker
There's high unemployment, drugs, gangs, crime, you know. And so like, if you say we're working on this when we have time, that translates to you're never working on this.
01:04:50
Speaker
Right. Because you're going to work on the case that is the most current because that likely is the case you're going to be able to solve versus the cold case that no one has solved. That is going to take more resources and time, you know, so.
01:05:05
Speaker
And there was a guy that already had three trials. yeah yeah I feel like that weighs into it. I mean. oh i agree. I agree 100%. and i And I do believe there are still officers of the court and law that believe that Juan Rivera is still guilty.
01:05:20
Speaker
I honestly believe that. That is what Tessman still says to people. That's what Waller constantly said to the Staker family. We got the right guy. It was just the judges who let him go.
01:05:33
Speaker
Right, and that undermines any possibility of serious continued investigation, I think. unless yeah Unless something else changed. But to me, like when you rely on somebody that is ah skewed, their opinion is at least skewed, they're saying, well, it's terrible that you know the killer got away.
01:06:02
Speaker
When instead of saying it's terrible that an innocent person was in jail for this. I mean, it's a good point, Meg. Really great point. It's completely backwards. But, you know, when people hear them say that,
01:06:16
Speaker
they if if if they are either too traumatized by the event to actually, like, think about it, or if they lack critical thinking skills, they could actually just believe what they're told, right? That the killer got away.
01:06:31
Speaker
Yeah. Your first point I think is spot on for like family or people. Of course, of course. This, I mean, i know it haunts me and other, you know, now adult women, but you know, women who were Holly's age or around Holly's age, but I can't, I know i cannot understand what her parents went through, what her twin sister went through and what they continue to go through.
01:06:58
Speaker
Like, i know that. And me, I'm not going to try to minimize or pretend like I understand their pain. um It just, and I'm, I have no doubt that they would relive it on her birthday, you know, on the date that it happened, like all of those things.
01:07:14
Speaker
And i I just want them to get justice. And I, you know, hope that people who are connected to this do understand that it's, is the podcast was not a goal to open you know, a wound that had started to heal.
01:07:33
Speaker
But it really was to find justice for Holly because she was portrayed in a way in newspapers that was disgusting. but i mean, they they asked her sister about if the girls had sex, if they were already sexually active.
01:07:49
Speaker
She was 11 years old. What did that have to do with anything? they They should be ashamed of themselves, honestly. And you could say, okay, in 1992, maybe we didn't know, but no, I'm talking about the third trial that happened in 2009. We knew yeah yeah this, you do not victimize the victim. And even if say for argument's sake, she was 11 and she was inquisitive with kids, her own age, that's, you know, her choice and kids can be that way, but you don't suggest to the jury
01:08:26
Speaker
that the reason Lon's DNA doesn't match, you know, the DNA that was retrieved from, you know, her private parts were, be they didn't match because she was a sexually ah active 11-year-old.
01:08:44
Speaker
Right. And it's, still you know, you and obviously, logically, it doesn't make sense that it there was no question that she was sexually assaulted yeah before she was murdered. Yes. And the DNA of, you know, the murderer is what you would find. Yes.
01:09:01
Speaker
If nothing else, in addition, right? So if she somehow um had consensual sex with somebody, well, the DNA would be there, but so would the killers. I mean, and it's an, it was an inappropriate stance. to Even the court, like the appellate judges, John, probably read that. Like they were highly critical of that.
01:09:28
Speaker
well It was the wrong, it was the wrong position. and And there was an expert that like, they took the time to explain why that scenario was irrelevant to the rape and murder of an 11 year old child.
01:09:40
Speaker
um It was, and it was done very carefully. They explained, how the DNA was mixed and how, um, it would not have been, um, the same type of DNA from someone that she had had and consensual encounter with.
01:09:54
Speaker
I think they said even like an hour earlier, but it could have been that they were talking about the, in the previous days, But and they explained activity of like 11 year olds who are babysitting that are walking back and forth between houses and how it would change where DNA could be found in the body and on the clothing and in the underwear. They went through great detail to point out that like the things that were being posited as potential theories were not potential theories that made sense in this case.
01:10:29
Speaker
I did want to ask, but I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, I cut you off. I just wanted to say something that they made Heather, the twin, testify to things that to me really also victimized Heather, the twin.
01:10:47
Speaker
hundred And I felt like that also was a travesty. And that's something that I don't think that is addressed enough. is that here you have a twin who has lost her twin in a brutal way.
01:11:01
Speaker
And now you're forcing her to talk about things that really have no relevance to this case whatsoever. But to prove your wild theory, you know, and to distract the jury from the fact that the DNA did not match, we're going to take this twin who is living a nightmare and have her sit here and talk to strangers and about like if they were ever, and we would call it now sexually abused, you know, or taken advantage of by say family members or by, you know, neighborhood people or whatever um to talk about these types of things when that had nothing to do with this case.
01:11:46
Speaker
Right, and they lost sight of the horizon there. And i feel like somebody should have reined it in i agree. so john I don't know who that could have been. i felt like the... So, I mean, again, we're talking about the appellate decision that exonerated Juan. In that appellate um order, it was really interesting because the court also pointed out that it was the the defense who in their appeal said that essentially...
01:12:14
Speaker
the state's attorney violated rape, I'm trying to think of the law, where essentially you cannot um kind of abuse the rape think victim, right?
01:12:30
Speaker
You cannot use their background. You cannot use certain things to essentially tear down the rape victim. and And that's exactly what they were doing. Yes. And the defense was the one who said this. And the court said the fact that the defense had to say this to ah essentially protect the person that their own client is being accused of killing, raping and killing, really showed just how messed up this whole thing was.
01:12:59
Speaker
I mean, it was that's really bad because typically they use it. um The reason that that come up to begin with is so men charged with rape couldn't belittle their victim. Yeah, yeah that's the whole reason for the rape shield laws. It's the whole reason for victims' rights.
01:13:16
Speaker
yeah yeah And so you're just in, like, i mean, in bizarro world, right? everything is backwards. So you've got a lot of inside baseball in this case. do you think...
01:13:28
Speaker
we'll see something in the next year or two where Holly's case may actually have a chance at some justice. Well, John and Meg, I hope that the podcast and our conversation here and my constant needling and everything else will bring true justice and they will find the person who killed Holly and possibly, you know, Delwyn.
01:13:54
Speaker
um I wonder if this person is connected to other crimes in Lake County, Waukegan. I suspect they are So I hope. Do I have absolute faith it's going to happen in my lifetime?
01:14:09
Speaker
i hate to say no, I don't. But that's why this podcast exists. And that's why I'm continuing to do this. I have a full-time job. So I don't need this.
01:14:20
Speaker
I don't need to you know take time away from my family and other things I could be doing, but I'm doing it because i really am bothered by the injustice of it. And I really want to see injustice for not just Holly, but also for her sister, Heather, and for the young girls of Waukegan who are now adult women, many of which still live in Waukegan and around that neighborhood.
Role of Content Creators in True Crime
01:14:45
Speaker
so I'm going to work my darndest to make it happen. And I think it's commendable that you're doing that. they I think people miss that part of things because we're so saturated with content that like is pretty much there for the spectacle. like a lot of people focus on different trials and different cases that, to be quite honest, like content creators just cover the same thing over and over again. So what you've done is really special.
01:15:12
Speaker
It's really unique. um Your hard work is to be committed, and I hope it does lead to justice for Holly Stakers. Thank you. I hope so too. Meg, I'm going to move to off topic stuff for a second.
01:15:27
Speaker
Is that right? Okay. Um, so, well, actually i do have two more questions about this case and then I'll do that. I just have a list of questions I want to get through. Cause I like to have the material. Um, what was the single hardest thing about telling the story in podcast form?
01:15:44
Speaker
Um, probably because I would like to tie evidence to what I'm saying or like tangible things to what I'm saying.
01:15:55
Speaker
And that's why I created the Facebook page so that I could upload certain things because if people are like me, like, I don't just go off of what someone says. I want to see it I want to read it. I want to see a picture of it I want to do something.
01:16:11
Speaker
So that's hard because of a podcast, right? And I'm not on YouTube. And part of the reason I'm not on YouTube is one, i don't want to go on camera. And I think just listening to something on YouTube is, for me, less you know enjoyable than listening to it in a a true podcast form.
01:16:28
Speaker
So I need, i think that's the hardest part is is not being able to say, okay, here is the document. I'm holding up the document I want to show you that I'm currently talking about. So I think that's a challenge.
01:16:42
Speaker
I know it's hard telling a story about this, this next question, but did you have a favorite part about like, or, or a part that was really endearing um that you found as you were doing the research on the case? And then after you had done all the research and you started putting the puzzle together, ah telling the story, is there a favorite part for you at all of this? Yes.
01:17:02
Speaker
So, yeah, i get what you mean by, like, how do you say a favorite part when you're talking about a brutal murder of an 11-year-old. Exactly. But, yeah um yes, I will tell you, i knew that Ray Bradbury was from Waukegan, and I like sci-fi, and I wanted to somehow connect the, you know, Waukegan part and Ray Bradbury Park. So that's where the name comes from. Something Wicked This Way Comes is book by Ray Bradbury. And Greentown is actually Waukegan. And he uses Greentown as the setting of a number of his books.
01:17:42
Speaker
So that's why I changed the name to Someone Wicked This Way Comes. um And as part of my research, I found out much more about Ray Bradbury and his family and you know all of that. So that was enjoyable to me.
01:17:56
Speaker
I liked that. that's cool I think that's an awesome way to to have done this, too, by the way. I love that story, and i love the movie. not not Not everyone loves the movie, but yeah I love it. I think if you like the book, I think the movie is hard to enjoy.
01:18:10
Speaker
But I think that's very common, that you either like the book or the movie, not both. Yeah, i it just happened that it had Jason Robards, and it was from that time in the 80s where I thought those types of like sci-fi and fantasy movies were like magical, and i I love that part of it. it does it They're definitely different creations.
01:18:31
Speaker
um So aside from this, are you really into true crime? like Are there things that you listen to and things that you like to do in terms of like um types of cases and genres of cases...
01:18:45
Speaker
Yes. So I listened to you all. True crime XS, obviously. um And i do for true crime. I like when they go into like the legal aspects of it. So that's why I really like true crime XS because you talk about the law, you talk about other things that, you know, kind of go into um not just this person was killed and, you know, this person was accused or,
01:19:13
Speaker
you have talked about wrongful convictions. You've talked about, you know, serial killers. Like I was really fascinated by your Jay Pohill case because again, you know, being from Illinois and then being familiar with Chicago and the fact that he was a student and the things that happened, i was familiar with, you know, the place ultimately um I believe where they found his body, things like that.
01:19:39
Speaker
So I liked factual true crime as opposed to true crime that doesn't have a lot of evidence, but it's more salacious, right? It's more kind of gotcha or, and that was the thing too, to tie it again, back to Holly Staker's case.
01:19:59
Speaker
I had listened, I believe I've listened to everything out there podcast wise about Holly Staker's murder. And there were a couple that just annoyed me to death because I was like, that's wrong. That's wrong. That's wrong. That's wrong. And i you know, like when I find out that I have said something incorrectly in a prior episode, i make a note of it and I correct myself at some point because i this is not about being salacious.
01:20:31
Speaker
You know, this is about, you know, you need to know the facts and here are the So if I got the facts wrong, I need to correct myself. And that's what bothers me about kind of the shorter form true crime that and they don't have enough time.
01:20:46
Speaker
and They don't research it enough, kind of like what you've said, you know, um and it's not accurate. And I i don't, you know, I don't want to be lied to, even if it's unintentional. I just I want to know the truth.
01:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for the kind words. I appreciate it. never know what what to say. um we have our kind of our rule here is like if we have a question about something or like if something pulls us in for more than a couple of hours, like we talk about it or text about it. That's our most frequent thing is we'll start texting about a thing and it'll grow.
01:21:21
Speaker
into like, oh yeah, we're covering that because we have, we have opinions. Um, and like, i do, i I used to spend a lot of time on Wikipedia, like editing things and like inciting sources. yeah Um, I had to, i had to stop doing that. Um, it's, it's one of those things where like today I get sucked into TikTok a little bit. Um, I don't do TikTok.
01:21:46
Speaker
Oh, okay. i I don't, like, really do it. I've done a couple of things on there kind of in the fiction realm to see what would happen. um But I get sucked in more and more because more and more cases that I'm involved in professionally have TikTok and Snapchat elements. So I have to learn about that stuff.
01:22:03
Speaker
And once I learn, I, like, go on there. And, like, I'm always, like, fascinated by the glut of people telling three-minute true crime stories. I'm like, I don't even know what's happening. yes Yeah.
01:22:16
Speaker
No, I don't, I don't get that. So. What do you think of like the 24 hour news cycle? I know you mentioned Facebook, which I would like to have the link to the Facebook group if you want to share it.
01:22:28
Speaker
I'll that in the show notes. um But what do you think about like, there's kind of always an audience like no you can log on any time of day and somebody is talking about true crime cases.
01:22:39
Speaker
So I don't know if you've ever seen the meme where it is ah like, someone says like my husband asked me like how, how did you get so interested in true crime?
01:22:55
Speaker
And I say to him, I don't know. And then below you see a picture of the Nancy Drew book and it says the books I read as a child. yeah And that's me. Like my, i don't know why, but my mom got us like Nancy Drew and the Hardy boys. And I had Encyclopedia Brown. Um,
01:23:14
Speaker
And so those were the things that I read on a constant basis. So the the true crime, like 24 hour news cycle doesn't it bother me with the exception of it's the same stories over and over and over again. Like currently, um what's her name? Reed. I can't think of her first name.
01:23:36
Speaker
Karen Reed. Well, would think I would know Karen. um Karen Reed. ah Like that's, that's covered to like, to nausea levels for me.
01:23:47
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, you know, I get it. She's attractive. She's got like a group of people who don't understand what's going on or the facts of the case, but instead, you know, are following this talking head that's convinced that she's innocent and being reloaded. Right.
01:24:02
Speaker
um But I, it's like, okay, like, can we move on to something else? I'm certain there's more out there that we could talk about or cover that, is not being covered. And I'm going to, again, go back to Holly's case. like Holly's case is more of a high profile case in Waukegan. And I think other people do know about it because she was a young girl, but I'm sad for Delwyn Foxworth.
01:24:26
Speaker
I'm sad for this black man out of North Chicago who was killed, who ultimately died a horrible death because he had, you know third degree burns over 80% of his body and lived in and out of, you know, rehab facilities because of injuries he sustained.
01:24:43
Speaker
but no one knows about his case. Why? That's really sad. Right. That's exactly how we pick things too. I mean, we try to cover things that don't get the limelight, but they should. yes Yeah. I'm sitting through a murder case. That's, it's not exactly similar to Delwin's case, but it is like, it's one of those cases where there's a tangential link between the victim who is obviously a victim and then the person charged with first degree murder, they have this meeting or whatever you want to call it. I'll call it a collision, but it's like, you know, two, two, two people physically meeting at a store.
01:25:23
Speaker
And now the, the victim in that case was okay from what happened. And then, they suddenly weren't from one of the procedures like related to what had happened. And, and like much, much later they passed away.
01:25:40
Speaker
And the, you know, the there's questions about like, is it because of, hi here yeah right. Yeah. Like, like which, which thing here are we going with? And I personally don't think it's first degree murder, but I do think it's,
01:25:55
Speaker
like a crime worthy of like a charge and a conviction. Like involuntary manslaughter? yeah I think it's, I think it's a voluntary manslaughter, not involuntary. I think it's voluntary. i think, I think the guy deserves to do like the presumptive range for voluntary manslaughter. and That's just my opinion as like,
01:26:14
Speaker
I try to come at everything from like a level headed perspective and like, I get a lot of eye rolling. Oh, that's just from the defense perspective. But, but the truth is, is because like, you know, I've seen what first degree murder looks like and, and that ain't it.
01:26:28
Speaker
Um, but there's problems with the case that kind of like make me go, why is this on trial? And like, we're not playing this out to like a voluntary manslaughter in the presumptive range and like everybody go home. Because I think that the problem with some people is,
01:26:45
Speaker
he's been sitting so long, this happened so long ago, because it was during the pandemic, um that, like, basically, if he were to get voluntary manslaughter as a plea right now, he would walk out, because of the way that but time is audited.
01:26:58
Speaker
um So there's that. um i don't i don't know, Meg and I, we we talk about these cases, ah we do, it's We have these weird collisions with real life. For instance, um in in Holly Staker's case, I was given the opportunity to go do some different types of ah continuing legal education around the country.
01:27:24
Speaker
And one of the things that i that I do or need more work with is death investigations. And I was suggested a homicide boot camp.
01:27:35
Speaker
And it turned out that Lou Tessman was one of the people presenting. So I was like, no, I'm not going to that. And then I thought about it. was like, maybe I should, maybe I should go sit in on it because then I would understand better what's happening.
01:27:50
Speaker
um so there's that, like, that's where like our, our, our real world and the podcast collide. Yeah. But I'm, you know, ah in speaking about that, he is a
Lou Tessman and Wrongful Convictions
01:28:01
Speaker
trainer. He goes around and the state pays him, um and I think some private organizations also pay him, to train in the re-technique.
01:28:12
Speaker
And i just find that mind-boggling when you have a man who is now linked to six wrongful convictions. And more, I'm just talking with the wrongful convictions that I say, the six, are are murder-related ones.
01:28:27
Speaker
He's connected to other like wrongful convictions that were related to rape. But I'm focusing on the murder part of it. So six, six out of Lake County. Those statistics.
01:28:40
Speaker
Well, had picked those. um When I heard you say them recently, I went through and tried to find more. yeah I think I got to about 10 with him. And ah so we do this holiday thing where um we we run 25 episodes kind of back to back. And in order for us to do that, we have to start planning kind of now. Mm-hmm. So I had actually looked at him and this woman out of Colorado, who's now being linked to a lot of cases that are being overturned.
01:29:09
Speaker
And I like started putting together links to all of the cases that two of them are related to. and I'm considering pitching to Meg. These are the two like sets of wrongful convictions. i doing holidays right and if You want information from me, things that I have connections or whatever you let me know i'm very happy well we may come around and do that because there are occasionally i mean people that really do need to be called out and the fact that he's teaching i mean that just means it's going to our training um that just means it's going to live on yeah right yes and that's what i'm afraid of you know his techniques are and again and you know
01:29:55
Speaker
I talked to a gentleman who was on Juan's defense team who actually knew John Reed. And this gentleman was like, John Reed is a really ne was a really nice guy. And, you know, I do think that the Reed technique has merit. So kind of like, John, what you were saying, like it does have merit. Like, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, but let's, you know, do some other things to make sure it doesn't lead us down this false path.
01:30:26
Speaker
Um, but I just, for Lou Tessman, the fact that he has a nickname and when I talk to people, there was a person in my family that knows Lou Tessman. And it just so happened. I was talking to them and I said, uh, they were like, oh, I know Lou Tessman. I said, did you know what his nickname was when he worked, um, for Waukegan police? And they said, yeah, lying Lou.
01:30:53
Speaker
When I tell you that I had three or four people tell me that, I didn't prompt them. I just said, did do you did he have a nickname or do you know what his nickname was? And they were like, yeah, Lying Lou. I mean, the fact that a department, a police department had a nickname for this man and it was Lying Lou, again, just boggles my mind.
01:31:17
Speaker
And he's still out there training people in his technique.
01:31:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's, you know, I'm bothered by a lot of things in the world, but like someone, so at one point I read and one of his bios or something that he was a commander for the major violent crime class force or something in Lake County.
01:31:40
Speaker
It's when they get to that level that I really start to worry about them. Like Meg was saying, like, you have to pick a time that they get called out. If that guy was still, like, and I know he trains now privately and, like, at a government level.
01:31:53
Speaker
If he were still in charge of homicide investigations, he would be the kind that you need to, like, I would be engaged in a letter writing and petition campaign. Well, i looked into...
01:32:04
Speaker
Like, okay, John Burge, right? He's out of Chicago and anyone who's familiar with Chicago and wrongful convictions and like abuse of potential um
01:32:18
Speaker
ah offenders. right So John Burge, I was like, what how did he finally, how is he taken down finally, right? Because people knew about this. People in Chicago knew about John Burge and his interrogation techniques. And I'm putting those in the air quotes.
01:32:33
Speaker
And it was like a nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Oh, yeah, this is a John Birch, you know, guy. And well, what happened was the Chicago Reader, which isn't a large publication, it's kind of like a liberal kind of out there um publication.
01:32:50
Speaker
But it had an expose about him and the Trib picked it up. And then after that, it was a snowball effect. And that's where I think about, that's what I think about when I think about people who are in a position of power, who are abusing that power to the detriment of other individuals where they are serving a life sentence, you know, in prison, and it is wrongful conviction, that that's where we need to have a light that shines on these not just wrongful convictions, but the people who are actively
01:33:26
Speaker
engaged in them where we know there's a history of this. We can prove it. There is a history that this is going on. Now, if you recall in Tessman's bio, he says that he has had 80, he said he crows about having 80 confessions in murder cases.
01:33:48
Speaker
He's only had three interrogations where he was not able to get a confession. um in a murder case. And that doesn't make any sense. No, yeah you're correct, Meg.
01:34:02
Speaker
And there was a Trib article where i don't, I can't remember if it was a professor out DePaul University, but it was a professor who said that is not humanly possible.
01:34:16
Speaker
That 80 confessions should raise red flags for all of us.
01:34:25
Speaker
And I 100% agree with that. And that 80 number has never changed, even since Herman Williams has been exonerated. And Bobby Mielek has been exonerated. So I'm like, okay, of the 80, where did these two guys fall in?
01:34:42
Speaker
Well, a lot of times, you know, the the department involved with a wrongful conviction settlement never truly reopens the wrongful...
01:34:56
Speaker
wrongfully adjudicated case. It's like, unless there's like lock stock, two smoke and barrels, they can look at it and go, it's this person because of this and this, they don't do any more work related to that.
01:35:09
Speaker
They just pretend like the court, you know, was being too liberal and they got it wrong. And and that's how it went. These bleeding hearts, they don't know what they're talking about. Exactly. exactly yeah So ah do you have any pets?
01:35:22
Speaker
I know that's an odd question, but it's an easiest way to. So I have two cats where my husband and I live. We're not allowed to have dogs in our building, which makes me sad because one of my claims to fame is that I adopted a deaf dog years ago who was my soulmate. And, you know, if my husband ever listens to pop this podcast, which he probably won't because he is disturbed by true crime.
01:35:50
Speaker
Um, that, uh, that my husband knows that my dog was my soulmate.
Personal Stories and Community Support
01:35:56
Speaker
Um, but we did a lot of work. Um, and I did a lot of training with him so that he knew signs and oh just, yeah, we were very close. And sadly I lost him during the pandemic.
01:36:09
Speaker
Um, and he was 13 years old, but he, yeah, he was the love of my life. He was like the best thing. So I'd love to get another deaf dog. One of the things I said to my husband is, we ever get a house, as we'll you know rescue a dog, a deaf dog, and then we'll um foster deaf dog, and then we'll have cats, and then we'll foster cats. And he's like, no, we won't do that, because you'll just be an animal hoarder, because you'll always be like, no, no one will love that.
01:36:39
Speaker
So um we'll see. We'll see who has the stronger will between the both of us. And he has a pretty strong will. So we'll see if wins on that one. Well, my my wife's limit is currently I'm allowed to have three dogs. And that's it. Although there have been moments recently that I'm like, you know, that third dog is kind of like, you know, lonely because these two are paired up. So like just one more.
01:37:07
Speaker
So he can have you need an even number. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I have five dogs. Wow. Yeah. Do you have a lot of space? um I mean, i have a yard um and all of my dogs are rescues. I love that. So I have one dog that I can't touch at all. she's She was abused, and and but she's really happy here. And then I have ah my youngest dog showed up on my front doorstep. Yeah.
01:37:39
Speaker
She was dropped off by someone who thought Meg's dog yeah was running for me. Or she was like, I've been watching this family and this lady, i I want to be part of her family because obviously this is where you go.
01:37:55
Speaker
Well, that it seemed like that's how she looked at it, like because she just showed up and she came right in and then she was she didn't even really care about the people in the house. She really wanted to be with the dogs. Yeah.
01:38:08
Speaker
And then I also have chickens. I have I have eight regular sized chickens. And then I had a hen who, uh, she had a clutch of, ah well, it was 11, but one died, when it was first hatched. And then another one, uh, died after a few days, but so I have nine babies running around. oh my goodness. i bet That's a door they're adorable. Oh, I bet.
01:38:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. My, um My grandparents were from the South, and so I would go and spend my summers with my grandfather, and he always had like rabbits and chickens, and he had a small like working farm.
01:38:52
Speaker
He was called a gentleman farmer, so you know, just like odds and ends, garden and stuff. But it was always so cute to see like the baby bunnies and the baby chicks and stuff. It was adorable.
01:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, they are very sweet. Yeah, yeah. And I guess my last question is, what's the best way that people can support you? i know you have a Facebook group and I know they can listen to your podcast and there'll be links for that below in the show notes.
01:39:18
Speaker
Yeah. Just get the message out. Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought. Yeah. I'm not doing anything where there's money related. And part of the reason is because, you know,
01:39:29
Speaker
For the people who I suspect will be interested in this, it probably will be people out of Waukegan. And I know they're socioeconomically disadvantaged. And I don't want to put a burden. And I know like, you know, for some,
01:39:45
Speaker
um where I can't even think of what they're called, like YouTube, you can ask for sponsors or whatever. And they can like give you $2 a month $1 a month.
01:39:56
Speaker
i I don't even want to do that. I don't have any ads. I'm not making a profit off of any of this. i All of the research I do is on my own time. When I get copies of stuff, I pay for it myself.
01:40:08
Speaker
because this is not a money-making project for me. This is honestly me trying to get justice for Holly and for the women out of Waukegan.
01:40:23
Speaker
This is what this is all about. And so to support me, I'm fine financially. I don't need people to help me in that regard. What I want is I want one, people to get the message out and two, if you have any information,
01:40:38
Speaker
to reach out to me. i give you my word. People have talked to me, but they have not wanted to go on record. i get permission from people if I'm allowed even to share what they share with me. I've had people tell me things that I have not shared with anyone because they have said, please don't say this.
01:40:55
Speaker
And I have not, but I keep it in the background. So if I can confirm it through some other way, then I go that direction. But i keep people's information anonymous.
01:41:08
Speaker
And I do that because if they're still living in Waukegan, they may not want people to know that they are talking to me. And I get that. So I just would love if people got the message out there, if people put pressure on the Waukegan police department to be more transparent, we don't know what's going on. Maybe they are actually doing, you know, investigative genealogical or genetic genealogy, right?
01:41:36
Speaker
And we don't know. Why don't we know? Why are they sharing this with us? Why don't we know more of what's going on in the connection between Delwyn's murder and Holly's murder? And in the most recent episode I dropped, I talk about Bobby Melok's case, which is another case of wrongful conviction.
01:41:55
Speaker
72-year-old woman was brutally attacked and murdered in a very similar way to Holly Staker. And I'm going to talk about in a future episode about marauder pattern theory to talk about the radius that rapes occur within and murders occur occur within.
01:42:16
Speaker
and is there a connection there? I don't know. But we might be able, if we find Holly's killer, we might solve other cases as well out of Waukegan.
01:42:27
Speaker
And that really is what I'd love to see. Yeah, I think that that would be an amazing side effect to what the ultimate goal is to get justice for Holly and then to also close out other cases. would That would be like a a really um an interesting wrap-up to everything, I think.
01:42:46
Speaker
Yeah. um Well, I think, ah is there a good way to contact you I think I saw there was an
Collaboration and Community Involvement
01:42:54
Speaker
email address. what yeah Do you want to say that on the air so you have it? Yeah, yeah.
01:42:58
Speaker
So what I say always at the end of every episode is that if you have any information about the murder of Holly Staker, Delwyn Foxworth, or now Augustine Mealock, you can reach me at justice4hstaker at gmail.com. And I'm going to spell that out because it's kind of long.
01:43:16
Speaker
um It's J-U-S-T-I-C-E, the number four. h-s-t-a-k-e-r at gmail.com. And then I have a Facebook page, Justice Denied.
01:43:30
Speaker
So it's it's literally two words, Justice Denied. And it was created specifically for sharing information about the events of these unsolved crimes out of Waukegan. And the Facebook page um is a picture of Lady Justice. So you see the woman with the scales, that's Lady Justice.
01:43:47
Speaker
And then the wallpaper is of Holly Staker and a photo of one of the kids' beds after Holly was found. um And so those are two great ways to reach out to me because you can IM me through the Facebook page or you can send me an email at the Gmail account.
01:44:09
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for coming on today. um I hope that we can have you back and have like some awesome updates where they've closed this out or possibly for some of these other cases. Yeah. I love that too.
01:44:20
Speaker
And keep doing the work that you're doing. um I really enjoyed your podcast. I really enjoy listening to... ah listening to ah basically your integrity, I guess, would be a way to put it. um I admire that. And ah John and I are on the exact same page. So it's always nice to um to talk with, you know, people that have a lot in common with us and a common goal.
01:44:50
Speaker
So hopefully we will be able to come back, you know, with any updates that we have and ah We'll keep spreading your message and get trying to get justice for Holly.
01:45:03
Speaker
I really appreciate that. I do. And i commend you both as well. Obviously, the Jay Pohlho thing case to me is something that I also have become fascinated in because of your podcast.
01:45:16
Speaker
And I know I know how much work goes into this. So I really appreciate um and I want to acknowledge the time and effort you both put into this and the fact that you go into the deep dive. It's not the sound bites, which I think is so important because that is oftentimes what's missing within these true crime, long form, you know, investigative podcasts is that it is a sign a sound bite more than it is actual facts and evidence of the case. So thank you for doing that as well.
01:45:47
Speaker
And it's just you, right? Yeah. Oh, so I like to say i actually have um a posse of women who also helped me. And these are women who are out of many of them out of Waukegan. There two sisters who reached out to me after I started the podcast, who actually had been working on a book about Holly Staker, and then life got in the way and they weren't able to finish it. So I talked to them on a regular basis.
01:46:14
Speaker
um I've talked to other individuals who also have been you know, kind of like on the peripheral, you could say, of the case who provide me with information.
01:46:26
Speaker
But like I have a girlfriend who's a law professor and she occasionally like gives me ideas or she'll listen to it and to the podcast and say, what about this? What about this? So it's really great to have write those people to like brainstorm with.
01:46:43
Speaker
And then i also have a girlfriend who is a middle um school teacher. She's a librarian. And in her middle school, she actually kind of almost has an online journalism or journal journalism for online, um like creators, so podcasters.
01:47:04
Speaker
And she has been the one that's been like, Angie, you're not enunciating. Like they're dropping words. So make sure you enunciate when you talk. So hopefully you've been able to see, cause a novice.
01:47:16
Speaker
This is all self-taught, right? Hopefully you've been able to hear. like how I have improved. Like the thing that won't improve is my Midwest nasal accent. That's never going to improve. So people were to to put up with that.
01:47:30
Speaker
um But definitely the fact that I'm much, I feel much better about my breathing, my ah like enunciation and not dropping my words.
01:47:43
Speaker
ah that has improved. So that's my girlfriend. So that's how she helps me where she'll listen to something and be like, ah like you're you know doing this or um we don't need to hear you take your breaths.
01:47:54
Speaker
Like we can hear you go and then you start to say something else. So you need to work on that. So those are the things that I do. So, yes, but I can tell you they're all women. I mean, I find this fascinating that all the people who are around me and are helping me are women.
01:48:08
Speaker
And so I just I love my female posse that's been helping me. That's awesome. that yeah That just makes it like that much more an awesome experience when you can look back and go, that's what I accomplished. yeah Something creative like that.
01:48:22
Speaker
Yeah. so But it was lovely meeting you both. I look forward to updates on this. Special consideration was given to True Crime XS by LabradiCreations.com.
01:48:35
Speaker
If you have a moment in your favorite app, please go on and give us a review or a five-star rating. It helps us get noticed in the crowd. This is True Crime XS.
01:48:46
Speaker
s
01:49:13
Speaker
want to go, but it's cause I'll disappoint ya. It's all I've ever dreamed of, something I cannot let go of.
01:49:24
Speaker
I hate the competition, this culture's like a Jimin. I lost the motivation to get fit in your expectations.
01:49:35
Speaker
True Crime Excess is brought to you by John Meg. It's written, produced, edited, and posted by John and Meg. You can always support True Crime Access through Patreon.com, or if you have a story you'd like them to cover, you can reach them at TrueCrimeAccess.com.
01:49:53
Speaker
Thank you for joining us.